Support for Donnybrook is provided in part by Design Aire Heating and Cooling.

[music] Well, if you don't know what fair is like any [music] >> Donnybrook is made possible by the support of the Betsy and Thomas Patterson Foundation and the members of Nine PBS.

>> Well, thank you very much for joining us.

This is the last show of our 39th year.

It's the last program for December and then when we come back in January, can you believe it?

We will be starting year number 40.

Wow.

Let's meet the panelists then jump into the topics.

Hello to the media veteran herself.

Wendy Wiese, one of our founders back there in 1987.

Bill McClellan of the Post Dispatch.

Joe Holleman who was in diapers in 1987 [laughter] and is with stltoday.com in the post.

And there's Alvin Reid from the St.

Louis American.

And a little note, tomorrow we're going to be at the Schnucks, Richmond Heights between 4 and 6 ringing the bells for the Salvation Army.

Please drop by and say hello.

Joe Holleman.

Uh I didn't expect it.

Uh this morning it was announced by Sam Paige himself, the county executive for St.

Louis County.

He's not running for reelection.

And uh this will be next year will be his last year.

He's not going to he's going to leave office in the year 2027.

He's had some struggles recently.

The budget he wanted, including a tax increase, didn't fly with the county council.

They didn't go for his idea to build a new government center.

The county has been a little bit stagnant in population.

Um overall, what do you think was the reason for him to decide not to run again?

>> First of all, I have to say that I was the second one here on the panel.

It was Alvin Reid who was the first one to say Sam Page isn't going to run again.

And I didn't believe him at first, but then after a while I started seeing it and more things happened, but I wanted to give you Alvin credit for being the man who called it for >> I did not want to say I told you so, but you know how.

>> Yes, you did.

Well, [laughter] >> and I'll tell you, I think it's all and you say budget thing, you know, the count the countyy's losing money.

The county is in a hole if it wouldn't have been grabbing money from other places.

>> So, when it comes to what is the reason, it's all of those you named.

And I honestly quite think that when you look around, um, I think maybe San Page was tired of being county executive.

I truly believe that the people of St.

Louis County might be getting tired of San Page being county executive.

There's never been any great harmony.

He's got a majority Democrat council, same party, and most of them don't like him.

[snorts] So, he's fighting his own party.

He's fighting the other party.

There's a candidate, Brian Williams.

an attractive is all get out candidate even without any problems on Sam Page's side.

Brian Williams would have given him a run for his money and then you've got the indictment.

I think he just looked at it and then when you take all those things, nobody was giving Sam any money.

>> So I think all those things uh >> Yeah, that's that's what I was going to say.

But most politicians you talk to say the worst part of the job is always having to ask for money.

And when you're Sam Page, nobody's nobody's going to be giving you any money, >> right?

>> So, uh, I thought that I liked Sam Page more than, uh, my fellow panelists do, but I think he's doing the smart thing and I think I don't think he would have beat Brian Williams in the primary.

>> I think that was, you know, there was a very real chance he was going to lose anyway.

And I just got a sense that he was beginning to just be tired of it.

And before the indictment and having to do all, you know, rigma roll, but then he moved, let let's move the the trial to Green County and Springfield.

And that was I I already believed he was not going to run.

But then that was just case closed.

How could you run?

I don't trust the people of St.

Louis County to find me not guilty, you know?

But I I just think quite frankly, I think the overall reason is I'm just tired of it.

And some of it is his own fault.

Some of it is definitely the county council's fault in that who who really wants to put up with that continual clown show.

Um, and I just I just think he was tired of it.

>> I I think you're I think you're absolutely right.

I think that when he when he came in, I think he had a great deal of energy.

He was energized by the promise of a a county government without Steve Stenger and the shadow that he that he cast.

And then of course you have COVID and po C co I think really was the that was the hill that he died on in the in the minds of a lot of voters because if you look at the hospitality industry I have friends who are in the restaurant business friends who own you know small coffee shops and things they still have not forgiven him for the decisions that he made.

He has an enormous amount of anecdotal evidence nothing empirical but he seems to have the support of the medical community in St.

Louis.

I just think it was a slog for somebody who got into it thinking that it was going to be sunshine and roses that maybe his honeymoon period would last a little bit longer than >> Well, apparently Brian Williams has $800,000 in the bank.

That's a lot of money.

He has the support of the uh St.

Louis County police.

He also has uh noted attorney Bob Blitz on his side.

Uh Bob Clark, former guest of this program, on his side.

And maybe Sam Page was looking at the cards and saying, you know, I I don't have that much.

And by the way, for point of order for the uh for the indictment, we should mention that he was indicted for illegally allegedly illegally using government money on a campaign flyer, which I I thought was like spitting on the side.

>> Yeah, I think that I don't think there's nothing to that.

In fact, I would not be surprised if that suddenly went away.

>> Well, do you think there was a deal?

In other words, his lawyers said he'll resign if uh maybe the attorney general's office drops the charges.

The attorney general herself, Kathern Hanoway, said today, "No, there's no deal."

>> I get that because I don't think he would be f even if he went to trial, I don't think he'll be found guilty.

So, I don't know that he would necessarily leave the office off that.

Uh I like I said, I just don't think he wants to run.

And another thing about Brian Williams is his the district that he represented um is like every part of the county.

It it's like it stretches from like south county to north county.

So that means he's getting votes from and he's popular from north to south in the county.

That's hard to beat.

>> Yeah.

I I think you talk about I I also think and I I'll repeat it, but I I think the county was equally as tired of San Page.

>> Oh, I agree.

>> Sam Page of the So I think that the thing one thing when you look at this is is that politicians tend not to run when they think they can't win.

Well, and I think he just flat out think he could beat Brian Williams, >> but you know, uh Mark Monavani ran a pretty good campaign.

He came within five points of San Page, but I think at that time people thought the county was tired of Sam Page.

I I don't know if uh >> Oh, that Manavani thing was is he a Republican, is he a Democrat?

This is clear straight up.

>> The county can't be too tired of somebody who's won twice.

>> Alvin Reid, what do you think about the county budget?

Uh the county council on Tuesday [snorts] got a budget at 9:30 in the morning and they started voting on it at 1. you know, no no public input.

I'm not even sure members of the county council had a chance to read it.

I mean, it's a billion dollar budget, but they decided to cut out 9% about $46 million.

They're going to use some Stan Kronke money from the NFL lawsuit that the county has, $15 million.

They'll go into reserves, $15 million there.

They're going to cut $46 million, including uh 70% of the dog food budget.

>> Uh they're going to cut healthc care center money.

They're going to cut parks money.

They're going to cut streets money.

What do you think of this?

>> Well, uh, first of all, county budget will be enhanced by the fact that my daughter Blaine is getting her master's degree in electrical engineering tomorrow from the University of Missouri.

I won't be a bell ringing because I'm going to be down that way.

But I want to throw this out there that Blaine plans to move back to St.

Louis.

She's not going to leave.

And uh, so you know, for all those that say, "God, how do we retain?"

Well, well, at least one Reed is moving back and her daughter's here.

But we're really proud of her.

We're going to be on to the county.

All right.

You got to cut the obviously, hey, we're broke.

We have to like do something.

So the 9% I think is a maybe a good start.

And I you it's got to come from someplace.

I find it like ironic is probably not the right word, but we're we're cutting streets and we're cutting some of our um you know, health uh coverage that's provided through the county.

It'll be that dog food thing that sets people off.

And right now out there they're saying like, "Well, I don't care about the health care facilities.

How are you gonna cut the dog food budget?"

So, everybody's going to have some qual 9% comes from, but I don't have a problem.

Look, you have to cut the budget and they're cutting the budget.

So, I I >> Well, did you have to cut the budget?

You could have gone with what Sam Page, the county executive, suggested, and that is increase the internet sales tax.

>> Well, yeah.

Once again, that we talk about Sam Page verse county council.

County Council is wrong on that one.

Nothing he can do about it.

He can't change their votes.

But yeah, we we have to slash even more because you all won't pass a tax on internet.

>> Well, and when when Sam Page said that that his his people that, you know, his office is going to have an opportunity to look at the budget, they can't even agree on whether or not the county executive has the power to do anything to to this to this spending bill, you know, in terms of vetoing or or overriding.

And so that kind of a slog getting back to his decision isn't surprising.

>> You know what Alvin, I was going to tell you that maybe we can feed the dogs with those geese from Brentwood.

[laughter] >> Remember that we talked about that Christmas the geese kind of disappeared.

>> Two, three geese.

That's going to go maybe 10 dogs tops.

I mean, so I think you know it's like so the government doesn't have any money.

God my gosh.

They're actually going to have to cut spending.

That's what you do when your income goes down.

as far as well, let's do another tax.

Let's do another tax.

The voters are pretty clear on what they think about taxes.

Yeah.

>> So, I mean, you and people get to vote on tax.

>> You know what Boston's thinking?

They're thinking about selling merchandise like t-shirts and mugs.

The city the city hall and in Chicago they're talking about putting advertising on the um bridge houses downtown.

I mean, >> and what part of the county would you want on your t-shirt?

>> I don't know.

I mean, maybe people have >> How about cutting spending?

How about how about cutting your spending?

Nobody was happy with the county flag if you remember the county the the >> the new logo >> refurb forgot about that.

Yeah.

>> Yeah.

That was that was bad.

But in terms of creative, why can't when it comes to dog food, we have rston in the city, can we not make some kind of an ar can we not enter into some kind of an arrangement with rston?

>> That's what I'm saying.

The first thing that'll get taken care of here is not the people.

It'll be the dog and the shelter.

I I'd like I I like Sam Page's idea of the tax on internet purchases, and I know the people voted against that, but I'm such a 20th century person and so into bricks and mortar stores that the idea that all those stores are losing out to Amazon and Jeff Bezos.

I would rather tax Amazon and Jeff Bezos.

>> Agreed.

and and have regular stores and raise money on and I don't disagree with that.

But the thing is is with a tax you have to get voter approval.

>> If you can't do that, what good does it do to propo you?

Okay, let's propose this voters sent a message.

We don't want that.

And the younger voters who do a lot of online purchases, they're never going to vote.

I >> I I admit I'm firmly entrenched in the 20th century.

>> The idea is is it's not a solution if you can't implement that solution.

Well, I think if you pushed hard enough, maybe you could depending on what the cuts are going to govern, but you know, people say the easiest thing is just cut.

But those cuts are going to come from I don't know how you do it.

Somebody likes >> and we we just had a national report showing that the county jail is full of mold and it doesn't have enough employees and we know that people will be complaining about the potholes if those roads aren't fixed.

>> I think the pothole thing gets blown out of proportion a little bit.

That's like every four years where somebody's running for office, all of a sudden the streets are messed up.

I don't break an accident.

Now, if you if you bought $1 million worth of Powerball tickets.

>> All right.

Oh, you think you would win $1.1 billion and get us out of this mess?

>> Bill McClellan, I want to ask you about the the land of Lincoln, your home state.

Uh JB Pritsker, the governor, was profiled by the Washington Post.

Pretty po Washington Post pretty lengthy analysis this week.

And among other questions it had was because he is the second wealthiest office holder in the nation, the other being uh President Donald Trump, Pritsker with his $3.9 billion nest egg.

Do you think that's going to turn off some Democrats to the far left, the Mandami types, the um Liz Warren types, the Bernie Sanders types, and he'll have trouble in the primary?

>> Oh, maybe that'll turn off some people, but I think Most people say, "Hey, you know, the Democrats remember FDR or the memory of FDR and Jack Kennedy."

I I hope that the Democrats don't nominate JB Pritsker.

And I hope they don't nominate Gavin Newsome.

I'd rather see it be a governor like that governor from Kentucky Bashers who doesn't have a national reputation.

And I mean, Pritsker, you know, it's great that he's out there fighting Trump, but I I think that the country is ready for a little more of age of Aquarius, a little peace and harmony instead of somebody who, you know, I want to take on and fight this person.

>> I don't think we put that.

I I I wish you were right, Bill, but I I and I I think in so many ways you are, but I think people have I think people have a taste for, you know, red meat right now.

And I the age of Aquarius I I I don't know.

And and you know JB Pritsker is almost like a mirror image.

He's like a mirror image of Donald Trump.

He can beat Donald Trump at being Donald Trump.

>> And so I just think social media >> maybe we'll have the Pritsker Trump Kennedy Center for the Arts for the Arts.

Yeah.

>> I Okay.

I think that he's positioning himself to to run for president.

So I think that's fine.

I I get it.

The money no one cares.

And where I differ with you on that, Wendy, I think what's going on in these elections that we've just seen, I don't think it's any specific.

I just think people are saying like, I'm tired of this.

And I'm with you, Bill.

I think right now the former president, uh, Barack Obama said, you know, last week, look, the Democratic party does not have time for these ideological arguments.

We, I.e., we need to nominate people that are just calm and resolute on getting the job done.

>> Well, you get Well, it depends.

I when you say this I I think that first of all I thought the article was a little disingenuous by saying is he carrying baggage with far-left progressive uh liberals because of money.

He's also Jewish and I think that also to a certain segment >> of the Democratic party with Josh Shapiro it was I think that's also a detriment uh to him.

It depends on what part of the Democratic party the Democratic folks want to listen to because if you're going to listen to the far left who's going to put up the most progressive people, chances are whoever it is that gets up loses again to a Republican.

>> Well, yeah.

But now New York, everybody's throwing New York City.

That's New York City.

All these other people that won in all these other different states are beyond moderate.

And I think that's the what will probably happen as we stretch on here over the next year.

Uh it's it's very easy right now to not be progressive because that's the lane I think that people are saying like I I can't be out.

>> But hasn't progressive sort of graduated into into socialism?

No.

I mean I think >> that's the most overused word in the world.

What is social?

>> Well, not when the candidates themselves are calling themselves.

Wait a minute.

But they're not going to win the presidency.

They're not going to win the nomine.

But if you you can't ignore that there's a faction of that in the Democratic party.

I I did, but we're talking about who's going to win.

And I think right now most Democrats are probably saying like that's that's that's not flying this.

>> Well, there's a lot of Democrats who think that we would have done better with Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton.

I mean, and Bernie Sanders is an avowed socialist.

I I thought I thought he connected with people.

>> He did.

But not to go back into history.

The problem was the person who ended up running shouldn't have been the person that ended up running because the person who was president shouldn't have run for president.

Now that's water under the bridge.

But that was [clears throat] not philosophical argument.

That was just stupidity.

>> All right, let's go to uh Josh Hawley, senior senator from the state of Missouri.

Wendy Josh Hawley is uh being criticized by the White House because he and his wife Aaron who are very pro-life are starting uh a movement an an anti-abortion movement in 2026.

And according to some unnamed sources from the White House, which you know might raise some skepticism in and of itself since they're unnamed, but apparently they and the president are ticked off because abortion isn't necessarily a winning issue for Republicans.

In fact, pro-choice won by three percentage points in the state of Missouri.

Quite a red state.

And uh they're wondering Kansas, right?

>> And in Kansas and in most states seemingly.

So, if you are approaching some very sensitive midterms when the Republican party has a good chance of losing the House, do you want to bring up some issues which Republicans have seen as losers in recent years?

>> I think that Josh Hawley is concerned with not the Republican party.

I think he is concerned with Josh Hawley.

I think he very much is the captain of his own ship.

I think he is going to do it the way he thinks it should be done.

Uh he does seem to be trying to extricate by by making this move.

He's trying to extricate the you know or at least you know set the stage for extricating the Republican party from MAGA.

And I think when you have Marjorie Taylor Green who's also chirping away, you know, and if you if you believe what you read, there are some, you know, there's there are some definite weak links within MAGA right now.

So, I think he's he's going to do what he can to keep the president happy or at least off of [laughter] off off of his throat.

Um, but I I think he I think he's going to do what he thinks is the right thing to do.

And one thing we all agree on this panel when it comes to Josh Hawley is the man is incredibly politically astute.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

I I was going to say, yeah, he's he's doing the what he sees as a smart thing to try to get the nomination in 2028.

And being the strongest prolife candidate in the Republican party is always a good bet in the Republican primary.

>> That's right.

>> Yeah.

Smart move on his part in that.

Once again, you like where's where's that lane?

Okay, there it is.

He's like he's going to say like, "Okay, right now I've got senators and I've got people in the house that no, we have to vote on this uh healthc care, you know, thing because I'm going to lose.

I have to be able to put my voice out there and said like I wanted to freeze these premiums so they didn't go up."

There's a lot there there's just a lot of discontent within the Republican party.

So he said like he said like, "Well, all right.

So Donald Trump is mad.

Donald Trump is is is that force that brought him back.

that's already kind of like >> dissipating, >> dissipating.

And by the time we get past, >> put it this way, once we get past November of next year, Holly is in the best position heading into January because that whole thing is over.

All right.

>> I've been writing stories about Josh Holly and he started this back in March when he said the Republican party needs to make some fundamental changes when I interviewed him here in St.

Louis.

And he's been doing that ever since.

He has partnered on bills with Elizabeth Warren, Richard Durban, Cy Booker, Bernie Sanders.

He has crossed the aisle on a number of things.

He has a bill out there that is as pro- union as any Democrat has proposed and unions around here are supporting it.

The Teamsters president has came back and said Josh Holl's done more for us than anybody else in the last year or so.

So, he has been making this lane.

It It's only a surprise if you haven't been paying attention.

But the idea and I a story that comes up and Bill knows how these are.

We have to write these year- end review sort of things.

My story is about Josh Holly, the year of Josh Holly.

and he he started all these thing and one expert said basically what you do if you're in that same party as Donald Trump 90% of the time 95% of the time you go along be a good soldier but you pick your spots where you disagree with him because in 2028 the two candidates that everybody brings up are Marco Rubio and JD Vance they're going to have to live and die with what Donald Trump did because they were in his cabinet Josh Hawley is making a way where I didn't agree with him on everything.

You know, Holly's the one that wants to allow that uh uh congressmen have to devest themselves of uh stock interests because they get inside information sometimes.

Trump White House didn't like that, but also didn't go after Holly on it.

They said, "Ah, we think it's a stupid idea, but he wasn't exposed to that Trump just totally trolling him online and that."

So, I think what Josh Ali is doing is setting himself up as a conservative Republican and also surprise.

He may very well be opposed to abortion on a legitimate case, but he set himself up as a person who I had my differences with Donald Trump, but I'm a Republican.

>> The credit card interest cap and all that.

That's very nonRepublican, you know, like >> Bernie Sanders, you know, walking that down.

Yeah.

>> Yeah.

What can you say, right?

>> Yeah.

You know, and I mean, so I I think it Yes.

Is is it calculated?

Absolutely.

But who's not calculating?

>> What what person who isn't Donald Trump on the Democrat or Republican side?

There's a whole bunch of people out there calculating.

>> Well, I don't know, Joe, cuz he's going to need some Republican support at some point.

And if he is one of those guys who's making it difficult for the Republicans to keep the House in 2026, he may engender some very bad feelings.

>> But he'll win.

He'll he'll >> I think he it plays it would play in the primaries like New York and California and places like that.

So, recent election.

Let's not forget those losses were in blue states.

I mean, those were not surprising losses.

>> I think the Republicans know they're going.

>> All right, let's move to the next topic.

Uh, Bill, I I thought it was an explosive story in today's Chronicle of Higher Education, which most viewers probably don't subscribe to, but I do.

And I noticed that Webster University was the target of a report that indicated that uh right now they're trying to get a lot of students from India and Nepal to come to the United States to study at Webster and they've been successful at that.

Uh among other things, they're accepting 85% of applicants.

They have these agents working in those two countries who according to the report are telling the students there, hey, you can uh come to uh St.

Louis and play cricket.

There are cricket courts.

There's all sorts of extracurricular activities and uh certain majors that don't exist.

But also, the students are coming here just to get the visas.

They're getting the F1 visas.

They're staying for one semester or two and then they're moving to California.

Didn't look like a really good story on Webster University.

No, I you sent it to me, so I read it, Charlie.

It's not on my usual uh reading list, but I I thought it was really devastating for Webster University because there's been these stories about the comeback and there more students and then you read that gez they're really buying these students, you know, the and they uh paying their uh advisors, you know, cash to get it.

It didn't sound like something that can be sustained.

>> In in other words, in and if it wasn't in like Chronicle of Higher Education, the things I would read would call it bait and switch and that they sent out bounty hunters, >> right?

>> And they grabbed these kids and everybody got paid.

They brought these kids over.

There is no cricket field.

There is no major that I wanted, but I got my visas, so I'm here.

And Webster said, "Thank you for your years."

>> Right.

Right.

That's that's hard to sustain success.

Absolutely.

>> It does.

and and this so closely on the heels of the departure of of Beth Roble and the Strobble Strobble, sorry, sorry, and the Strobble and the um you know the the stories about $128 million being lost in 10 years by the po those those stories on the part of the Post Dispatch.

This I I I have a very bad feeling about the future.

>> I I just this is me.

I don't I don't want to sound like just you know Joe corrupt here but okay wait you get a visa you want a visa you got a visa hang around for a year we get your tuition what you do after that it's all good I'm >> that's fraud sounds like fraud >> that's not fraud I entered into this knowing that I'm probably going to have to go to school someplace else and the country's paying for it the country doesn't have a problem I don't have a problem >> thank you Alvin and thank you everybody uh we want to tell you that you can write to us care of ninepbs s.org rather 3655 Olive Street St.

Louis Missouri 63108 you can also send us your emails at donnybrook@ninepbs.org or and on social media.

Use donnybrookstl.

Call the nine.

Share your opinions at 314512994 and listen to us on your favorite podcast source.

We have a program on YouTube.

It's called Last Call and you can find it on the Nine PBS YouTube channel this week.

Among other things, Joe released a video uh on stltoday.com taking a look at two local officials swatting it out, fighting fisticuffs in BellFountaine Neighbors.

So, we'll discuss that on Last Call.

That's it for this week's program.

We'll see you tomorrow at the Schnuks Richmond Heights between 4 and 6 for the Salvation Army.

Happy holidays and happy new year.

Donnybrook is made possible by the support of the Betsy and Thomas Patterson Foundation and the members of NinePBS.