JOHN: TODAY IS SUPER SATURDAY, THE LAST SATURDAY BEFORE CHRISTMAS.

IT'S PREDICTED TO BE THE SECOND BUSIEST SHOPPING DAY OF THE YEAR.

IF YOU'RE GOING ONLINE TO BUY SOME LAND-MINUTE GIFTS, THERE'S A CHANCE THE PRICE YOU'LL PAY WILL BE INFLUENCED BY WHAT'S KNOWN AS SURVEILLANCE PRICING.

THAT'S THE PRACTICE OF SOME RETAILERS TO USE THE POWER OF A.I.

TO SIFT ALL SORTS OF PERSONAL DATA TO SET INDIVIDUALIZED PRICES ONLINE.

THINGS LIKE YOUR AGE, GENDER, GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION, AND EVEN BROWSING HISTORY COULD CHANGE THE PRICE YOU PAY.

SPEAKING WITH JAY STANLEY, SENIOR POLICY ANALYST FOR THE SPEECH, PRIVACY AND TECHNOLOGY PROJECT AT THE ACLU.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

WHAT IS SURVEILLANCE PRICING?

AND HOW DOES IT WORK?

>> SURVEILLANCE PRICING IS BASICALLY WHEN COMPANIES GATHER A HUGE AMOUNT OF DATA ABOUT THEIR INDIVIDUAL CUSTOMERS AND WE'RE LIVING IN AN ERA WHERE MORE DATA IS BEING COLLECTED ABOUT US THAN EVER BEFORE.

COMPANIES TAKE THAT DATA AND THEY USE IT TO TRY TO FIGURE SCOUT BASICALLY HOW TO WRING MORE MONEY OUT OF YOU WHEN YOU BUY THINGS FROM THEM.

WHAT IS YOUR PAIN POINT?

WHAT ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY?

AND QUESTIONS LIKE THAT.

AND THERE'S A WIDESPREAD EXPERIMENTATION HA WITH THAT KIND OF PRICING IN A ROGIN: SO WHAT ARE SOME EXAMPLE OF THAT?

HOW ARE THESE COMPANIE THE MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF DATA THA EXISTS ABOUT ALL OF US ONLINE T GIVE US THESE?

I'VE HEARD IT DESCRIBED AS LIKE PERSONALIZED STANLEY: I MEAN, RIGHT OFF THE BAT, THERE'S A LOT WE DON'T KNO BECAUSE, NUMBER ONE, THEY'RE GOING TO CLAIM TRADE SECRETS.

NUMBER TWO, THEY'RE USING AI, WHICH IS VERY OPAQUE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

EVEN THE BUSINESSES MAY NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT THE LOGIC OF THE AI THEY'RE USE IS.

BUT THIS FIRST CAME INTO PUBLIC ATTENTION WHEN THE PRESIDENT OF DELTA AIRLINES, SPEAKING TO INVESTORS, SAID THAT THEY WERE PLANNING ON USING AI TO SET AN INCREASING PROPORTION OF THEIR PRICES, THEIR AIRLINE PRICES, AND THAT THEY WOULD USE PERSONA INFORMATION ABOUT PEOPLE TO DO THAT CREATED A BIT OF AN UPROAR IN CONGRESS AND ELSEWHERE.

AND DELTA BACKED OFF AND SAID, NO, WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO THIS.

BUT IT REALLY PUT THE ISSUE, WHICH HAS BEEN OUT THERE FOR 10, 15 YEARS ON A LOW-KEY LEVEL, REALLY PUT IT INTO THE HEADLINES RECEN AND SO WE'RE SEEING ATTENTION B CONGRESS, BY STATE LEGISLATURES BY THE FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION AND OTHERS.

THERE WAS A RECENT REPORT THAT INSTACART HAS BEEN DIFFERENTIAL PRICING.

A CONSUMER GROUP DID A TEST AND THEY FOUND THAT 75% OF THE PRODUCTS IN INSTACARTE WERE GETTING SET WIT PRICES WITH DIFFERENT PEOPLE, WITH SOME OF THE PRICES 23% HIGHER FOR SOME PEOPLE THAN FOR THE WALL STREET JOURNAL HAS REPORTED THAT RETAILERS LIKE HOME DEPOT WERE SETTING DIFFERENT PRICES FOR DIFFERENT CUSTOMERS WITH CUSTOMERS IN AFFLUENT AREAS ACTUALLY GETTING CHARGED LESS.

SO YOU KNOW THINK THAT THERE'S A LOT WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING, BUT IT' GOING ON.

ALI ROGIN: WHAT IS TH DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THIS TYPE OF SURVEILLANCE PRICING AND SOME OTHER EXAMPLES AND TYPES OF DIFFERENTIAL PRICING THAT WE'VE SEEN OUT THERE ALREADY, LIKE DYNAMIC PRICING?

JAY STANLEY: I THINK THAT THE CORE ELEMENT OF PRICING OR PERSONALIZED PRICING IS THAT IT'S BASED ON DATA THEY HAVE ABOUT YOU.

IT'S DIFFERENT FROM CHARGING MORE FOR AN UMBRELLA WHEN IT'S RAINING.

IT'S DIFFERENCE FROM UBER CHARGING DIFFERENT PRICES AT DIFFERENT TIMES OF DAY, DEPENDING ON THE AMOUNT OF DEMAND FOR THEIR CARS ALTHOUGH, THERE HAVE BEEN ALLEGATIONS THAT UBER... FOR EXAMPLE, IT CHARGES MORE TO PEOPLE WHOSE BATTERY IS ABOUT T DIE AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

THAT WOULD BE PERSONALIZED PRICING.

UBER HAS DENIED THAT THERE CAN BE VERY COMPLEX AND SOMETIMES SUBTLE DIFFERENCES AMONG THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF PRICING AND THAT CAN MAKE IT COMPLICATED.

BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THEY HAVE A LOT MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE WAY THE WORLD WORKS ABOUT HOW DIFFERENT PEOPLE REAC TO DIFFERENT PRICING.

THAN ANY INDIVIDUAL DOES, AND THEY ARE SEEKING TO USE THAT ADVANTAGE IN INFORMATION AGAINSTINDIVIDUALS.

ALI ROGIN: BUT ALL OF THIS IS LEGAL, RIGHT?

AND THE COROLLARY QUESTION TO THAT IS WHAT REGULATIONS EXIST OR SHOULD EXIST TO PUT SOME GUARDRAILS AROUND THIS GUARDRAILS AROUND THIS PRACTICE?

JAY STANLEY: IT'S NOT TOTALLY CLEAR THAT IT'S LEG IT'S A BIT OF A LEGAL GRAY AREA THERE ARE, FOR EXAMPLE, PRIVACY LAWS, STATE PRIVACY LAWS.

SUCH AS CALIFORNIAS THAT MAY HAVE THINGS TO SAY ABOUT THIS AND THE WAY DATA IS USED.

THERE ARE CIVIL RIGHTS LAWS THAT HAVE TO DO WITH DISCRIMINATION BASED ON ANYTHING BASED ON ETHNICITY, RELIGION, AGE, GENDER, DISABILITY STATUS, COULD GET A COMPANY IN HOT WATER IF WHAT THEY'RE DOING STARTS TO IMPLICATE THOSE THINGS.

THERE ARE STATE... CONSUMER LAWS, AND THEN THERE'S THE FEDERAL TRADE WHICH HAS A CHARGE TO GO AFTER DECEPTIVE AND UNFAIR TRADE PRACTICES, AND THERE COULD BE CLAIMS THAT SOME OF THESE FALL UNDER THAT.

AND IN FACT, THE FTC HAS BEEN INVESTIGATING THIS.

THEY DID AN INVESTIGATION, A REPORT IN JANUARY, LAST JANUARY AND A REUTERS REPORT THAT THEY'RE LOOKING AT IT AGAIN UNDER THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATIO SO, I THINK THAT IF YOU'RE A BUSINESS THAT ARE DOING THIS, Y ARE NOT NECESSARILY ON SOLID LEGAL GROUND.

ALI ROGIN: IS THERE ANYTHING THAT CONSUMERS CAN DO TO PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING TARGETED WITH SURVEILLANCE PRIC JAY STANLEY: IT'S DIFFICULT.

I MEAN, AT THE END OF THE DAY, A LOT OF THESE ARE BIGGER THAN AN ONE OF US.

THEY'RE SOCIAL QUEST FOR EXAMPLE, I MEAN ONE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS HERE IS THAT SO MUCH DATA ABOUT US IS BEING COLLECTED AND FLOWING TO THE COMPANIES, THAT GIVE THEM ADVANTAGES OVER US.

AND THAT'S BECAUSE CONGRESS HAS FAILED TO PASS AN OVERARCHING PRIVACY LAW AS ALMOST ALL THE OTHER SORT OF INDUSTRIAL COUNTRIES HAVE DONE.

THAT WOULD CUT OFF THE FLOW OF DATA AT THE SOURCE THAT IS.

FUELING THIS KIND OF STRATEGY.

BUT CERTAINLY, YOU CAN DO YOUR BEST TO HIDE YOUR IDENTITY WHEN YOU'RE SEARCHING FOR PRICES.

YOU CAN YOUR BEST PROTECT YOUR PRIV AND BE AWARE OF IT.

A AND SEE WHETHER PEOPLE YOU KNOW ARE GETTING CHARGED THE SAME PRICE.

ALI ROGIN: JAY STANLEY WITH THE ACLU, THANK YOU SO MUCH.JOHN