JIM DOWNING: And then that led to gun engraving.

And that was a 20, 30 year path, now 45 years running.

But it's not something you plan on doing, or very few of us do.

Like life in general.

It started with engraving ivory, and it's now-- what I do now mostly are guns of the Old West.

So the style of engraving that I like and the guns that I like are the guns of the pre-1900 period.

[fiddle music] [engine whirring] [hawk shrieks] [steam whistle blows] Jim Downing, often hailed as the Van Gogh of guns, is renowned for his exceptional skill in gun engraving, transforming firearms into works of art.

On today's program, we visit with Jim at his workbench and see firsthand how his artistry meets functionality.

NARRATOR: Ozarks Public Television and Missouri State University are proud to present "OzarksWatch Video Magazine," a locally produced program committed to increasing the understanding of the richness and complexity of Ozarks culture.

Visit our website for more information.

Well, thanks for having us out today, and this is going to be a very interesting show and I hope to learn a lot more about engraving.

But before we start, why don't you talk a little bit about yourself.

Tell us about your background and how you got into this business.

I got into this business, believe it or not, to meet girls.

[laughter] When I was 20 years old, I started doing scrimshaw.

When you're 20 years old, everything you do is to meet women.

And I started doing scrimshaw, which is the art of engraving on ivory, in New Orleans.

And very soon after I started, I met my wife, now of 40 something years.

And it's like, now, what do you do?

So you got to actually try to make money at it.

Scrimshaw is the art of engraving on an ivory.

Back then, we did engraving on fossiled walrus ivory and mammoth ivory.

I'm not an artist.

Never was.

But I learned how to do scrimshaw, and from there created jewelry with the ivory and started metal engraving on the jewelry.

So from engraving ivory, which is done with a dry point scribe, I started hand engraving with tools like this, silver jewelry, that I learned how to do myself the silver work.

And that led to knife engraving, doing both scrimshaw on the handles and then metal engraving on the bolster.

This thing is-- this knife is beautiful.

JIM DOWNING: Thank you.

And then that led to gun engraving.

And that was a 20 or 30 year path, now 45 years running.

But it's not something you plan on doing, or very few of us do.

Like life in general.

It started with engraving ivory, and it's now-- what I do now mostly are guns of the Old West.

So the style of engraving that I like and the guns that I like are the guns of the pre-1900 period.

So are you from the Ozarks originally?

Or where are you from?

I grew up on the East Coast, but left at the age of reason.

[laughter] At 18 years old, I left the East Coast.

And my wife is from New Orleans, lived down there for a while.

But we've moved here to Springfield, Missouri in 1989, to the Midtown neighborhood, which was a historic district that year.

We moved in when it was turning historic.

And we're involved deeply with the historic renovation and restoration of Midtown.

And then Commercial Street and on and on.

We were involved, and still are involved in the community, both in the restoration and the arts community.

Yeah, I'm always curious, by the way, about what drove you to make the decision to end up in Springfield, of all the places you could choose?

Well, I can work anywhere.

I mean, I work at home, and I travel to events all over the country and all over the world.

So anywhere that we chose.

My wife's mother and father were alumni at Drury University, going back several generations.

So when they retired, they came back to Springfield, Missouri.

We were looking on the East Coast for a place to buy and renovate.

And the prices out there were insane.

We visited them here in Springfield, found the exact same kind of house where we were looking for 1/10 the price.

Looked around this town and said, I can live here.

And that was it.

We ended up my wife's grandparent's neighborhood, around Drury University-- Drury College at the time.

Bought a historic 1880s home and over the years have fully restored it to the 1880s splendor.

So what-- switching back over to the guns and stuff-- what got you interested in the late 1800s?

Was it the cowboy kind of thing?

Or was it just-- You know, cowboy shooting, Western action shooting.

All right.

Tombstone, the movie hit in the early '90s, whenever that was.

And cowboy shooting, which is part of the shooting genre, but they're shooting guns that have style and grace.

Modern guns engraving, lipstick on a pig.

I mean, you just-- like a Glock, really.

Just don't do that.

But a cowboy gun has style and grace in its own right.

Nostalgia, romanticism, whatever you might call it.

And they scream for engraving.

I have some guns-- most of the guns I work on are 1873s, 1892s, guns pre-1900, and they just scream for the engraving.

That style of engraving is what I enjoy.

And shooting these guns.

I grew up fishing, personally.

But these are the guns that have everything that is romantic about the Old West.

And that's what Cowboy shooting is all about.

Yeah, we were going to talk a little bit about the cowboy shooting in a few minutes and everything.

But why don't you demonstrate-- I guess, first of all, how do you select what you're going to do for a particular gun?

Is there a-- Yes and no.

Do guys speak to you and you say, it should be this, or how does-- Guys that know me-- and I've been around 45 years now-- you choose an engraver by his general style.

You don't show him a gun that was done by somebody else and say, will you do this?

No, I do that.

He does this.

So the style that I do is from Colt and Winchester Remington from the 1880s.

I do what they call factory engraving or commercial engraving.

I engrave a gun a week, every week here in my shop.

What I have in front of us is a pair of Colt pythons.

These were designed in the mid-century last century.

And they're still popular guns.

They're a double action revolver.

This is a pair.

I finished one last week and I'm working on the second one right now.

So the second one, I'm doing what I did on the first one.

The first one I built the design, the scroll, which is what I'm doing, which is a representation of vines, more or less.

I built it around the shape of the gun.

Any lettering I got to deal with, anything that is in the way, you got to deal with.

And then two other things.

The price, how much the client wants to spend, and the materials.

There are some parts of guns-- not this-- but other guns that I can't engrave on.

How much impact does the client have to say, hey, I would like to have whirligigs and go off.

Very little.

Very little?

Yeah.

Most people just say, Jim, have fun, keep it under $2,000.

And get my name on there.

And I take it from there.

So I was going to ask you, you do lettering as well?

Oh, sure.

I mean, if it's a graduation gift for a Marine Corps graduate, for instance, there might be names on there.

It might be dates on there.

The Marine Corps logo, on the other hand, I'm not going to do that with my chisel.

In a half an inch.

Something like that, you would use graphics, with laser engraving nowadays is the graphic of choice.

And you might do that on the grip.

But the other parts, the scroll, the traditional design, and then the lettering, that's something I do freehand with this tool.

So the first thing you notice when you're doing this is you strip down the gun to the-- To the smallest part.

To the smallest part.

Yeah, if I can.

There are guns that I take off the barrel and the back straps.

It just depends on the gun, how I can take it apart.

But I want to take it down to its basics so I can work.

Because I'm always turning this in my ball.

To get scroll, I start with a circle.

And from the circle, I start-- [machine whirring] So just cutting and everything I do is freehand.

You have a series of circles?

Well, yeah.

So in this case, you see one, two, three, four, five scrolls.

Are those guides for you to-- No.

No, that's-- JIM BAKER: You just-- I drew five circles.

So that's all I draw.

I can't draw.

I can't write legibly, nor do I draw on paper.

So on here, I just draw-- I drew five circles with a little template.

And from there, I make it up as I go.

So the first cuts are these, the backbone of the scroll.

So that is the actual scroll.

What I'm working on now, the second part is adding the leaf work to the scroll.

So I'm doing freehand again.

I'm adding the elements of the leaf from the shape of the leaf itself, and then hatching and cross hatching the background.

Building up the value and the design so that in a few hours this is going to come out looking hopefully just like that.

JIM BAKER: Yeah one of the first things I was thinking about is if you had a very expensive gun-- And I do and.

JIM BAKER: Yeah.

And you were doing these engravings and you mess up.

Then your answer was-- You don't mess up.

[laughs] Or if you do, you never go, oops.

I mean, it's just not done.

This 1911 I'm about to engrave will be a $20,000 gun when I'm done.

It's a handmade, hand built 1911 from a Kings River Custom down in Arkansas.

So yes, some of these guns are expensive.

So you have to have a lot of guts to free-- You have to have a lot of experience.

Seriously, man.

I teach engraving.

I've taught it for 20 something years.

But I can teach you how to do the art and how to do the craft in a week.

But it takes 5 to 10 years to get decent at it, let alone good.

You don't touch a gun for a long time.

Because you can't undo it.

Once you cut it, it's there forever, period.

If you do a knife and you mess it up, you can always put it in your fishing box, for instance.

And I got more than a few in my fishing box.

But, if it is somebody's gun, let alone think about if it was your grandpa's gun, and there's only one, it's not like you can go out and buy another one.

Grandpa taught you to shoot with this firearm.

It's a one of a kind to the family member.

To me, it's another hunk of steel, because you can't think about the value, obviously.

I just think about the design, getting it right the first time, and that's all there is to it.

Yeah, I was going to ask you, do you ever just kind feel nervous about it and say, whoa, I hope I don't mess up.

No.

You can't let that into your brain.

All right.

That being said, I don't take on $100,000 guns.

There are some shotguns and whatnot that are just insanely expensive.

Yeah, I don't go there.

I get the choice now of what I want to engrave, after 40 something years of doing this.

I choose what I like to do, because I'm always a year and a half behind and more.

So I get to choose the clients and the guns.

And I choose the pre-1900 guns in general.

And the clients that I work with, again, cowboy shooters and other collectors of this kind of gun, are a lot easier to work with than many other people out there.

Again, most of them just say, Jim, have fun, let her rip.

Do what you would do on your gun.

And I do.

So do you have like a-- well, I don't want to dwell on all the negative, but do you have insurance and stuff that says, hey, if I mess up-- I'll pay for the gun.

Yeah.

You could take-- you could take a pretty good hit if you do that.

No, I never have.

And hopefully never will.

I'll get away from the negative stuff.

But why don't you talk a little bit about the tools of the craft that you have.

Because you've got some.

Interesting-- When I started this-- so in 1979 is when I started engraving.

And back then engraving was done with a tool like this.

Just a hand burin and then a hammer.

And you would do this on hard steel.

If you're doing soft metal like copper, you would just use a hand tool and push through the copper.

If it was steel, you would take a similar hand tool and use a hammer and chisel.

What I have here came out in 1979.

This is down the road generation 4 but it is basically a little impact cylinder that bounces back and forth like a jackhammer.

It's basically doing this-- [hammering sounds] --a thousand times a minute.

When I activate this-- [tool whirring] --it's palm activated.

So just like this hand push tool, if I want more, I push more.

With this tool, if I want more, I push more.

So I have a very light stroke or heavy stroke.

And you can hear the difference.

JIM BAKER: Oh, yeah.

[tool whirring] And if you notice, the most important tool on the table probably isn't the impact tool.

It's the ball.

JIM BAKER: Yes.

Without that ball, I can never get anything round.

I'm turning the work into the ball just like this lathe behind me, where you turn the work into the cutter.

I'm turning this into the impact handle.

Yeah, because if you just had a flat surface, you'd really be-- Yeah, if I-- or in the old days, they actually stood up and walked around these guns.

They would have this up on a post and stand up and walk around it circle after circle after circle.

Yeah.

Or some innovative people use something like a pottery wheel where they turn the gun with their foot as they're doing tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap.

So yeah, the tools have changed over the years, but it's no different from going from my grandfather was a carpenter using a handsaw like this.

When the skill saw came out on the market, the electric skill saw, it was a huge innovation.

Sharper, cleaner, smoother, and faster.

So all of those lead to cleaner work.

And if you're charging by the hour, and at the end of the day you are, it's a little faster.

It's still free-hand engraved.

That carpenter still had to be skilled at building the cabinet.

But he had a cleaner cut.

Yeah, we were talking earlier about for a craftsperson, really there's always that human element that's still involved, no matter what the tool.

Yeah.

When I do a gun, let's say somebody hands me a Winchester and they want to design like this.

I can look at that design and try to cut it exactly like it was.

But my character, my tool, everything about me is going to come out in the gun.

It's like having the Rolling Stones do a Beatles tune.

It's still going to be a Beatles tune, even if the Rolling Stones do it.

So because of that, people don't have me copy other people's work.

I've been doing this for so long.

They'll say yeah, I like the one you did in August 1920, and show me a Facebook page of something I put out.

And that way, I have an idea in there of what's in their head, what they're thinking about for their gun.

So is each time you do one of these, you have a basic style.

Yes.

But each-- Each one's different.

--one is unique and different.

Even this one that is a pair.

Even this pair-- I was going to ask you-- --is going to be a hair different.

And if it weren't, it would be mass production.

It would be a machine driven-- Yeah, exactly.

The back strap of this gun is a hair different from the back strap in that gun.

JIM BAKER: That thing is so intricate-- well-- JIM DOWNING: It's the nature of the beast.

It is a craft.

It's one of a kind.

Even though it might be similar in style.

And this is going to a newlywed couple.

But when you put the grips back on, they look similar.

But if you really look at the detail of it-- If you get down like this and look in the detail, you might find little variations.

But most people never notice that.

But the variations are what make it-- That makes it unique.

Exactly.

Make it unique.

This particular gun is going to get custom grips as well.

I've seen pictures of them.

They're a white hard grip that has laser engraving with names and wedding bells and all of that kind of stuff and dates on there.

Yeah, it's going to a couple being married in the near future.

Sure.

So is-- like, for the grips and stuff, is that normally-- is that typically ivory-type stuff or-- Not for generations.

On occasion, I see mammoth ivory grips.

You know, elephant ivory has been long gone, but mammoth tusks and fossil Walrus's tusk-- I have some Scrimshaw here that I did years ago that is on both mammoth and fossil walrus.

When you find mammoth ivory-- it's all over Alaska.

It's very common.

It's only 10,000, 12,000 years old.

They make beautiful grips.

You even see mammoth teeth and, I mean, all kinds of exotics.

So if you use any ivory nowadays, it's the fossiled ivory or mineralized ivory from the period.

And it's beautiful.

I have mammoth ivory on a number of my guns, yeah So without giving away a trade secret and whatever your dollar per hour is, how long would it take you for a-- not this one, but for a typical-- This is typical.

JIM BAKER: --typical gun?

How long?

I do a gun a week, every week.

Some weeks, I do two guns, depending on how detailed they are.

But in general, I work every day.

You know, I'm not off doing something, I'm here in the shop, and I'm going to be engraving every day.

I mean, maybe not 10 hours a day-- Right.

JIM DOWNING: --in or four many days.

But every day, I'm engraving.

And I do a gun a week, every week.

That's my goal, period.

JIM BAKER: So do you come in and sit at the bench and start in?

And you feel particularly good that day you work a little bit longer, and you don't feel so good one day, and you don't work as long.

Exactly.

And then the other thing is also the material.

Again, one of the guns on the table over there is done in brass.

When I'm cutting brass, it's like being on a motorcycle on a country road.

I'm just smiling.

I never have to sharpen my tool.

I'm doing a layover and bright cuts, and it's just a pleasure to cut.

When I'm doing stainless steel, it's a little different.

I'm cutting-- I have to be a little more precise.

It's a little harder.

I have to sharpen my tool more often.

The tool gets dull, or it might chip, so I have to keep it sharp with a diamond bit, you know, sharpening system.

But it's-- you know, when I'm cutting this, this copper, that was such a pleasure.

And you know, then the item starts tarnishing, and you get the unique colors and all of that.

Copper brass are pleasure to cut.

So you use diamond tip bits to-- No, the bits, if it were diamond or carbide, with the impact that we use-- JIM BAKER: Too much impact --it would actually chip.

JIM BAKER: So I'm using diamond sharpening materials on Mo-Max Cobalt, which is basically a lathe bit, again, like you would use on the machines behind me, but a little bit smaller.

So it is a chisel.

And the chisel has two bright edges.

So as I'm cutting the metal, if the edges on the chisel are bright, the engraving on the metal is going to be bright as well.

It reflects the material that I'm cutting.

Is there-- do you ever have trouble with-- like, if the-- I guess, if the gun was a little bit defective or the metal-- the stainless steel was defective for chipping or something like that?

There are some metals that are not only hard but brittle.

Those are two different things.

I get intimate with the metal, much more than many other people.

When you use a sharp drill bit, and you get a nice curlicue coming out of the drill bit, that's what I'm looking for.

The same drill bit on a different metal might bring up chips rather than a curly Q.

If it's going to chip on that drill, it's going to chip also when I'm cutting it, and that's not good.

So that would indicate that it's not only hard but brittle and maybe even ununiform.

So a metallurgist or a machinist would be dealing with the metal the same way that I do.

Some metal is just a pleasure to cut, and some of it, you just remember in the back of your head, yeah don't do that again, you know?

So do you ever have someone come in with a gun, you say, yeah, I don't really want to do that?

Oh, all the time-- nine out of 10 guns.

Sure.

Really?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, it-- you know, again, modern guns.

My excuse is, well, it's got a spray and bake finish, and it'll chip.

The reality is-- That's what's I kind of curious about was-- yeah.

Well, yeah, I mean, there are a lot of guns-- a lot of-- forget about guns.

Any items, whether it's a fly rod or a part of a mandolin, you know, If somebody brings me a piece that is nickel-plated, it's going to chip.

So there are things that I can't cut because of the material.

And I cut many things other than guns and knives.

No, we're going to run out of time very quickly, but this is very interesting.

So, oh, let's talk a little bit about the cowboy-- the-- Cowboy action shooting.

JIM BAKER: Yeah.

So cowboy shooting has been around for 30 years and more.

But the events that are happening all over the world, it's been a good 30 years.

There's 200,000 guys and women and children that are shooting cowboy action.

I've traveled all over this country doing major shooting events.

Nowadays, I do only international events, both here in the United States.

I'll be at the national event in Oklahoma in a couple of weeks, then down at Tombstone, Arizona.

I just got back from the European national event in Sweden and then spent a few weeks over there traveling around as well.

I've been to Australia and New Zealand, Germany, all over the world, engraving.

You know, I don't go there to shoot.

I'm much better at engraving than I am at shooting.

JIM BAKER: [chuckles] When I shoot, you know, for me it's all about looking good.

It's the mustache.

It's the clothing.

It's the guns.

JIM BAKER: Right.

It's more of a social event.

And that's why cowboy action shooting is so much fun.

As many women as men, a lot of kids It's a great thing for a granddad to bring his granddaughter to.

It's a intergenerational.

And-- So you were saying, like, in most of the-- a lot of the countries you go to, the cultural experience of the Old West is really a big deal.

They love the Old West.

They love Cowboys, but I think even more, they love Indians.

In Sweden, last month, my wife brought her Indian costume.

She has a handmade Indian costume from the North Plains Indians.

And she said, I'll be the biggest hit there.

And she was, by far.

She only brought the one costume.

They love cowboys and Indians.

They love engraving, you know?

In Cowboy shooting, it's better to look good than shoot good, so the engraving is a big part of that.

So how big is the whole story, a big part of that, the whole leather Walsh thing is that?

'Cause that could be intricate as well.

Yeah, just as I'm at a shoot engraving, there are leathersmith that are there.

There are blacksmiths.

There are guys at all of these events selling the accouterments that we all need.

So that's the clothing and the leather and the guns, the accessories.

Yeah the shooting events that we go to might have 1,000 people and maybe 40 or 50 vendors.

Do you-- do you do a lot of trade shows and things like that?

Or-- because when you-- Similar.

--talking a little bit about Las Vegas and-- Yeah, I do some big events, conventions like the Shot Show.

It's a sporting goods show-- the second-largest convention in the world.

I go there and I engrave at a booth, selling the guns of the Old West.

But I'm sitting there engraving, bringing people into that booth.

And I get to hand out my cards, get people from my engraving class.

It's a good way to meet people from all over the world.

No, plus, you can learn a lot, too, 'cause I've learned a lot today about the difference between engraving and etching.

And etching, yeah.

JIM BAKER: [chuckles] And all the different things.

Hand engraving, you know, It takes a lot of practice, but I'm trying my best to pass on the skill to the next generation.

Well, I really appreciate your spending time with us.

I know you're busy.

And actually, I was impressed that you were kind of engraving as we were talking.

I was like, whoa, I hope I don't mess him up.

When I'm at the events, I'm doing this and talk-- [laughter] You know, people have never seen it done for the most part, so it brings people in all the time.

Whenever you hear that buzz and see my head down like this, I often have people all around the table watching.

Well, thank you very much for being with us.

It's been a pleasure.

Thank you.

I appreciate it.

We'll be back in a moment.

[music playing] NARRATOR: "Ozarks Public Television" and Missouri State University are proud to present "OzarksWatch Video Magazine," a locally produced program committed to increasing the understanding of the richness and complexity of Ozarks culture.

Visit our website for more information.

I'd like to thank Jim Downing for taking time to show us his exquisite work on firearms and how this artistry brings the era of the Old West back to life.

Join us again soon for another episode of "OzarksWatch Video Magazine."

[music playing]