(bright music) - I've heard so many stories of folks that have pressed it into a friend's hands and said, "Hey, just trust me.

This sounds weird, but you're gonna love it."

(bright music) - Well, hi, and welcome to the "PBS Books Readers Club."

- Today we'll be joined by the incredible Shelby Van Pelt to discuss her heartwarming and unique novel, "Remarkably Bright Creatures."

- This book tells a story of Tova, a grieving widow who works at an aquarium, amazing, who forms an unlikely bond with a curmudgeonly, giant Pacific octopus named Marcellus.

Through their connection, Tova uncovers mysteries about her past, and finds hope for the future, which I'm sure we could all use.

- [Lauren] Yes, yes!

(hosts laughing) - And because this book celebrates the bond between humans and animals, it's the perfect pairing for fans of PBS Masterpiece, "All Creatures Great and Small."

- Hi, I am Fred Nahhat, here with Lauren Smith, Princess Weekes, our literary expert and author, and Heather-Marie Montilla, librarian, and PBS Books National Director.

- We wanna hear from you as well.

Share your thoughts on "Remarkably Bright Creatures" in the comments, and let us know what you think about the book, the themes, or even the octopus.

- And don't forget to join the "PBS Books Readers Club" Facebook group to connect with other book lovers, share recommendations, and get involved in ongoing discussions all month long.

- It's the best book club ever.

Seriously, these folks give such amazing recommendations.

And hey, don't forget to share this event.

Great books are even better when you enjoy them with friends.

Click that little share button right now.

Do it.

- Oh, nothing beats a book with great friends.

So let's dive into "Remarkably Bright Creatures."

It is a delightful and moving story about a woman and an octopus, yes, an octopus, who help each other find meaning, healing and connection.

- Tova's relationship with Marcellus is truly heartwarming.

It's a beautifully woven narrative that captures the power of unexpected friendships, and second chances.

So what did all of you think about this book?

I thought it was charming.

- I really enjoyed it.

As you guys know, I used to work at a bookstore, so I saw this book all the time, had no idea what it was about.

So everything about it, the mystery unfolding was amazing.

- [Lauren] Yes!

- I expected romance between Tova and the cashier guy.

I was like, "Get it, girl."

- [Lauren] Yeah, Ethan, right?

Love the Scottish cashier!

Yeah, I loved that.

- Yeah.

And just the entire connection.

And I really enjoyed Marcellus's perspective.

As a child of the 90s, I love anything of person and animal adventure.

So I was just, I was totally sold.

I love the entire adventure.

- And for me, I feel like last year, we really, we read several books about females aging.

But this was completely different.

It really took us on her emotional journey, dealing with trauma, but also romance.

- Yeah!

- Also kind of this second chance of finding herself, and also her friends, and that hard thought about loneliness.

And I don't think we really delved into those themes as much as this book does.

- Yeah, yeah.

I agree.

I thought it was great.

- Come for the anthropomorphism, and stay for the mystery and the romance.

But the thing that struck me the most is a first-time novelist.

- [Princess] Right.

- I mean, how is this possible?

- Outta the gate.

- I went to a wedding last summer, and two ladies, book experts from the neighborhood.

Both of them recommended this.

Wendy and I both read it.

And I don't know there's another way to say how great it is.

But again, back to Shelby.

How, how, how, on the first time out?

- It's amazing.

Every time I talk about this book, whoever I'm talking, "Oh, I love that book!"

- Yeah.

- Yes, for sure.

- I'm so glad we got to pair it with "All Creatures Great and Small," for this month's Read and Watch Alike, because it celebrates that bond between human and animals.

And especially for Tova, she is connecting with Marcellus the octopus.

And it's sort of helping her deal with this grief.

And sometimes it is easier to connect with an animal during those times when you feel vulnerable, and things are traumatic.

And I think a lot of us can relate to that.

Like your pets and animals.

Like, they just, they know.

- [Heather] Yeah.

- They know when you need them.

- [Princess] I mean, - Go ahead.

- I was gonna say, and like, not a spoiler, but like, there's this tension as well of like, Marcellus is reaching the end of his life cycle, and you're just sitting, every time you get a chapter from him, it's like, "How many days do we have left?"

(hosts laughing) - I mean, I think just sometimes I look at my dog, who I love, and I always wonder what he's thinking.

And I sometimes talk to him as if he's gonna talk back.

But here, to see a character so well-developed, and hear their perspective about us?

- [Lauren] Yes!

- Right?

That was really amazing.

'Cause it really was, "Oh, what does my dog think about me?"

- I love that part when he's like, "People call me a smart cookie.

Like, I'm not that thing that you guys get out of the vending machine."

- I'm confused.

(hosts laughing) - Yeah, I love that.

- Well, I love the whole thing.

And you guys know this about me.

I lost my mother, I got a puppy, and I read this book all in the span of three weeks.

And nothing resonated, or was more clear to me, than the aid and comfort you can get from an animal.

And thank God for my Miley.

I fell in love with her immediately.

- Oh, Miley.

I love Miley.

We need to see Miley.

Let's show a picture.

- Yes, we need a picture of Miley.

- Listen, she reads along with us.

- She's the best.

- Well so much to discuss with Shelby Van Pelt, who will be joining us in just a moment.

But first, we wanna invite you to join the "PBS Books Readers Club" too.

Share your thoughts on "Remarkably Bright Creatures," and maybe even post a question or two for fellow Book Clubbers to react to.

- Like any good book club, it's more fun when everyone gets involved.

And there are lots of ways to connect, including our e-newsletter.

You'll get exclusive author interviews, book recommendations, and so much more.

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You can also watch full seasons of your favorite PBS series, including the new season of "All Creatures Great and Small."

- "All Creatures Great and Small" is our Watch Alike this month, a perfect pairing with "Remarkably Bright Creatures," to celebrate the bonds between humans and our animal friends.

Author Shelby Vent Pelt joining us in just a moment.

But first, let's take a quick look at what's happening on this season of Masterpiece, "All Creatures Great and Small."

- To all our boys, may we see them soon.

- Hear, hear.

(gentle music) - [Speaker] A trained vet, Herriot, perhaps you might be of more use elsewhere?

- Excuse me, is this Darrowby?

- Hi, yes.

(gentle music) - Hello there, wee man.

- James!

- Come over.

(gentle music) - It's not only the animals we need to consider, but the people too.

- And now you've managed to lose a dead cat.

(gentle music) (cat meowing) - I will never utter a cross word to that boy again if he comes home in one piece.

- [Speaker] To be early is to be on time.

To be on time is to be late.

- And to be late is unacceptable.

You drummed that into me enough times.

(uplifting music) - To things that never change.

I do like it when the house is full.

- So do I.

(gentle music) - Wow, what a beautiful show.

I'm Heather here, joined by Melissa Gallant, who is the Executive Producer for Season Five, "All Creatures Great and Small."

Welcome.

So glad to have you here.

- Oh, thank you so much for having me.

It's such a pleasure.

- "All Creatures Great and Small" is such a huge hit.

It may seem impossible, or improbable, but there are some people out there who are unfamiliar with the series, or James Herriot's books.

Can you tell us about them?

- Of course.

James Herriot is the pen name for a real vet called Alf Wight, who wrote the books over 50 years ago about his own experiences in the Yorkshire Dales, which is in the north of England, one of the most beautiful places in the country.

And so James Herriot is the vet based on Alf's own experiences at the heart of the show, who, at the very beginning of the show, travels from Scotland to the Yorkshire Dales to take a job, his first job as a veterinary surgeon.

And he is employed by a senior vet called Siegfried Farnon, and he lives and works in the house with that senior vet.

And the show is about James and the other characters in that house, who are like a found family, really.

And his experiences as a country vet in the Yorkshire Dales, the characters he comes across, the farmers, the animals he helps.

And it's set in the 1930s.

We start in 1937, and now in Season Five, we are in 1941.

- So on that, when did you first read "All Creatures Great and Small?"

When did you first, like, as a child, did you read it with your parents?

Or did you come to it later as an adult?

- So I watched some of the original BBC series as a child, and I was quite young then, but I was allowed to stay up and watch it.

But the books, my parents-in-law actually lived in the Yorkshire Dales for about 10 years.

They were originally from London, but moved up there.

And so my husband and I would go on holiday and see them a lot, and it was just this wonderful place.

And I remember first picking up "All Creatures Great and Small," which is the American publication of the book there, and reading it, and just being transported.

And obviously, reading it whilst in the Dales, was a magical thing.

And then coming to "All Creatures Great and Small," the show, once it was greenlit, I read Ben's script, and it was so joyful and brilliant.

So it's been a real treat for me, actually, to be able to go back up to the Yorkshire Dales, which I hadn't been to since.

- What was your greatest challenge in producing Season Five?

- Of course, animals are such a star of the show.

- [Heather] Yes.

- But they also haven't read the script, apart from Tricki Woo.

So they don't necessarily do what you want.

The schedule is really tight.

So our directors do an incredible job achieving the scenes that we need them to do in a day around the cat, who wasn't really feeling it at that moment.

I mean, cats tend to do the rehearsal absolutely fine.

And then think, "I've sort of done it now, I might just go over here."

So yeah, definitely animals.

And in the Season Five, one of the big changes is that we've got Baby Jimmy through different ages.

So we had twins on set all the time.

And again, children, like animals, we've working with both of them on this season, that I know provided the directors and production team with some challenges.

But they've done a brilliant job.

And actually Jimmy is just such a joy in the series, and Rachel Shenton and Jimmy have such a kind of natural, joyful chemistry.

- Anything else you'd like to tell the audience, Melissa?

- It's just, it's such a joy to make.

And there's a family on-screen, there's a family off-screen.

People all say it, but it's very true.

And I think one of the greatest privileges is bringing that together.

But I just think the show has been so successful and we often talk about why.

And I think we really underestimate the power of the found family.

Not everyone is blessed with a family, or a family they get on with.

And I think life's not easy.

And if we can kind of let people be our allies, and be allies to other people, and journey along this road together with people, whether or not we're related to them, I think it's just ultimately so hopeful in that respect, and that whatever we go through, if we've got kind of people by our side, and don't take ourselves too seriously, but let people be a little bit of light for us, I think we can get through hopefully anything, but the challenges that life brings.

- Hmm.

Beautifully said.

And your series is beautifully done.

Thank you so much, Melissa, for being with us.

And we look forward to seeing more.

- Oh, well, thank you to you so much, And to PBS Masterpiece for just being a joy to work with, and to the audience really, for their unending support of the show.

So thank you.

- Thank you.

- And now speaking of great creatures, we turn our attention to our Book Pick of the Month.

Let us now welcome in Shelby Van Pelt, the author of this month's pick, "Remarkably Bright Creatures."

Shelby, welcome to the "PBS Books Readers Club."

- Hi, thanks so much for having me.

- Well, thank you so much for joining us.

We are absolutely thrilled to have you here.

To start, can you tell us what inspired you to write "Remarkably Bright Creatures?"

Such an original book!

- Oh my gosh.

I kind of wish I had a better origin story for this book.

Like I wish I was a marine biologist, or some master scuba diver.

I'm not either of those things.

I am just sort of an animal fan who went down like a YouTube rabbit hole one afternoon on octopuses and became fascinated.

Which I think is honestly how a lot of my readers have also come in to be octopus fans, and become fascinated by them.

I was in the very, very early days of attempting to write fiction.

I'm not a trained author.

It was just something I sort of decided I wanted to try to do.

And I went down this algorithm journey on YouTube with naughty octopuses in captivity, and thought to myself that that would make a really fun character.

- Well, as I said to our panel, "Come for the anthropomorphism, and stay for the mystery."

This character's so unique, Marcellus the octopus.

Incredible.

Now, was it difficult given your research and your rabbit hole, to capture the perspective of such an intelligent and curious creature?

And how did you approach writing Marcellus from his point of view?

- Well, it's interesting that you mentioned sort of giving animals these human characteristics.

Obviously everything that is happening in Marcellus's head is imaginary, is fantasy.

That's the fun part.

That, as far as we know, octopuses can't read, they don't have thoughts in the English language like that.

But everything that Marcellus is doing in terms of interacting with his physical world, I really took care to make sure that all of those things would be possible.

And in many cases, are even things that octopuses have been documented doing.

Sneaking outta their tanks to go eat the other exhibits.

I mean, this happens, it's happened many times, that have been on video in captivity.

The collecting of objects.

That is something that octopuses really do, both in captivity, and in the wild.

So, I think I took kind of two different tracks with it.

I wanted to make sure that all of his physical actions were extremely believable.

And then the sort of interior monologue is really where I let my imagination run with it, and had a lot of fun coming up with a voice.

He's sort of super imposing, like a grumpy old man.

- For sure.

- Or just me, on my first days.

- Me too!

- Why aren't people doing what I said?

(hosts laughing) - Yeah, that sounds right.

I had no idea that an octopus could live out of the water for a little while, that they could just crawl around on land.

- [Fred] Right.

- So that was a new fact for me.

But what I'm curious as to what were some of the original reactions that you got when you told people that you were writing from the perspective of an octopus?

- So, I had some critique partners and some writing friends that I sort of worked with along the way.

And I don't think anyone was too surprised by this project, which maybe says something about me, and the way that my brain works.

So I was querying agents.

And the woman who ended up becoming my agent has an assistant who reads all of the incoming cold queries.

And she wrote in the margin of my query letter that "This is either brilliant, or bananas."

And then passed it onto my agent, who went on to sign me.

So it only kind of takes one person to say, "Well, this probably is bananas, but maybe there is something here that we can actually sell."

And it's been really fun watching.

I mean, I'm not saying that I invented this genre, obviously there have been tons of kind of wild, crazy weird animal stories out there, since the beginning of literature.

But it's really one of the most fun things for me is seeing when other authors who are pitching their wild book use "Remarkably Bright Creatures" as a comparable title, and say, "Hey, I've got this weird thing too, and I wanna make a go of it."

- That's really cool.

- Yeah, I love that.

Tova's journey is so rich and emotional.

Could you tell us more about her relationship with Marcellus and how it helps her navigate grief and find healing?

- Yeah, Tova was a really fun character to write for me.

Tova is largely based on my grandmother, my mom's mother, who came over from Sweden, much like Tova.

A lot of her mannerisms and her worldview, her way of speaking, her way of thinking.

I pretty much took from my own relationship with my grandmother.

And one of the things that my grandmother was, she was very sweet, but she was very kind of closed off when it came to anything below that surface level.

She was always just fine.

She didn't wanna be a burden on anyone.

Even as she got into kind of her old age, where she did need help, that really was difficult for her to accept help from anyone.

Very independent.

So I sort of took that outline of a character that I took from my grandmother, and superimposed it on someone who is sort of stuck in this small town, where everyone does want to help her, and does want to get into her business.

And that, for me, was the great dichotomy of the Tova character from the beginning is that she's extremely lonely, but yet she's surrounded by all these people who care about her.

They're always trying to fix her, and it's kind of too much for her.

So really, the break for her comes when she has this moment with Marcellus, where he just listens to her.

And I think, listening without judging, without trying to fix, is one of the hardest things to do.

I mean, even for like human-to-human relationships.

I mean, to just listen to someone, and be a sounding board and take what they say in without trying to mastermind it can be really hard to do.

And so I think that is what Marcellus does for Tova.

The really funny part being that Marcellus is the judgiest creature in the entire book!

And yet he is the one, I always wanna say person, he's not a person.

He is the one individual.

- He's a dude.

He's little dude.

- He is a dude, who can listen to Tova, and not try to fix her, and just listen to her story.

And that really is the thing that helps her start to be able to open up a little bit.

- Well, I love Tova.

So if your grandmother was anything like her, she must have been a very special lady.

What do you think she would think of this story, and of your journey?

- Oh my gosh.

Well, she passed away in 2017, so she never saw any of this happening.

I was working on the book a little bit back then, but it was very much in its infancy, and I never had shared it with anyone at that point.

She lived into her 90s, and I think she would be very proud of me to have published a book and have all this success with it, of course.

But she'd probably also be a little bit horrified of her being put on this national stage, international stage in such a way.

She was a very private person.

- All right, Shelby, now speaking of someone else's grandmother.

From STDs at the senior living centers, to the idea of Millennials, they do not want hand-me-down cribs.

I know this for a fact.

- Princess would like one, please.

- I love how you capture these details that come from real life.

How much fun is it for you to riff on these kinds of topics and include them in your storytelling?

- It's just really the idea of taking different generations and looking at the different way that they view things is obviously really fun.

And you see this all the time in social media with, it's like Millennials versus Gen Zs versus Boomers.

And everyone always forgets Gen X, which I am technically Gen X.

- Yes, they do.

- I was born in 1980.

- Aww, it's okay.

- We love you guys.

- But yeah, no, I just think it's really interesting.

The idea of stuff and of how we deal with that, and how different generations would look at those things.

- Totally.

There's something truly special about the way you write about the bond between humans and animals.

And that's something that we see all the time in stories.

Whenever someone needs help in dealing with grief, they get a dog.

- [Lauren] Yeah!

- And it's like, why do you think these relationships are so powerful in storytelling?

What do they give us that we can't find in sometimes, human companionship?

- I mean, I think it goes back to just that whole like, listening without judgment thing.

I mean, I know I'm a cat owner.

And when I'm really upset, or having a bad day, my cats will crawl onto my lap and purr.

And it's like sometimes that's just what you need.

You don't need someone to try to fix it for you.

You don't necessarily want to rush into the therapist's office.

I mean, maybe eventually, but like, right there in that moment, what you need is someone to just care.

And I think that's why those relationships can be so powerful.

I did an event at a high school actually, a few months ago, and it was amazing the, I think it was the senior, maybe it wasn't just seniors, it was one of the art classes had read the book, and then were told to just make art based on any of the themes that they saw in the book.

Very wide, open-ended instructions.

And of the dozen finalists that I saw, I think 11 out of 12 of them had painted some sort of depiction of a relationship with a pet.

And that was not part of the instructions.

It was just, paint something that spoke to you in the book.

And they were amazing paintings, by the way, for high school kids.

Oh my gosh.

But I think that really speaks to how universal that really is.

The idea that the animals that are in our lives can sometimes fill a role that the humans can't.

- [Heather] Yeah, yeah.

- Well, so true.

And often, pets are our person.

Speaking of like, I'm an audio book person.

And so hearing the voice actor act the character of Marcellus, he sure got this contempt for human behavior.

I mean, it was a wonderful character.

But also, to your point of being contemptuous at once, and also being this helper, was Marcellus based on anybody in your life?

- Well, okay, so I think Marcellus is all of us, a little bit sometimes.

He says the things that we can't say out loud, things that annoy us about - - Exactly.

- And that's the freedom of writing from a non-human perspective, right?

You can say those things.

But yeah, I think Marcellus's journey, his character arc, so to speak, I think is one of the most satisfying for me as a writer in the book.

He goes from this kind of pure contempt of humans to really wanting to hold humans to a higher standard, to caring enough to want them to be better.

And so there still is that sort of contempt mixed in there.

There still is absolutely a sense of superiority.

- [Fred] Yes.

- But there's also this idea that like, "Come on, you guys can do better than this."

And it's something that resonates with me a lot whenever I feel sort of hopeless about the state of the world, or, which is sort of is easy to do these days, to remember that like, hey, we have, as humans, maybe more potential than we give ourselves credit for.

And all of this behaving badly that we do in the world, like maybe we can do better.

Marcellus would have wanted us to do better.

- We'll do better for Marcellus.

- For Marcellus!

- For Marcellus.

- I'm somebody that before I travel, I love to read books that are set in the location that I'm visiting.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Sowell Bay, where your story takes place, is fictional.

But that feeling of the Pacific Northwest and the Washington State coast really seeped into my bones as I read.

I don't think I ever imagined it being sunny.

It just like really felt like that Pacific Northwest.

Can you talk about how you developed the setting and the role that played in the story?

- Oh, I love that you say it was seeping into your bones.

Because I feel like when it's really damp and cold in the Pacific Northwest, that's exactly how it feels.

Like it is seeping.

- Oh, I got that from your writing.

- But, in the same way, and I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, so this is very much a part of who I am.

But I haven't lived there since I was 18.

So I think for me, a lot of creating that was really like nostalgic almost, of remembering those summers of my childhood.

The feeling on the first day when you could wear a T-shirt and feel the sun on your skin and not feel the fog, and the drizzle seeping into your bones.

It truly is such a special place in terms of just its geography.

Washington state has the wettest corner of the United States in it, in the Olympic Peninsula, which I always think is interesting.

And it's just, it's such a moody place.

Things are always growing.

I remember going back home after I had moved away, I was in my 20s.

And just being astounded by the moss.

If anything sat still for a moment, moss would grow on it.

It was like the green is just constantly trying to take over.

And there's almost a sense of claustrophobia that comes with that, that I thought actually suited the story really well.

Because with all of these characters, there is a little bit of that claustrophobia encroaching, when other people are sort of trying to meddle in their lives, and they're resisting it.

But mostly it was just me revisiting my favorite place, the place where I grew up.

- [Lauren] Amazing.

- All right, Shelby, I love what I will call the exercise of observational genetics.

How people look like their forebears, or how they don't.

Sometimes subtle, sometimes plain as the literal nose on their face.

But you nailed it in this, it's the gait.

The gait is such a tell.

Talk about that sleuthing of genetics, and also gestation, that you reveal so subtly as you tell this story.

- Yeah, so that is actually something that came about just sort of out of logistical need.

I played with so many different ways of having Marcellus be able to communicate with the humans in this world.

And I played with sort of him having some sort of ancestral knowledge that would let him, and this is a little bit of a spoiler, that would let him know for sure, the relationship that he suspected was people were genetically related, that they actually were.

But when it came down to it, I'm like, it just needs to happen through observation.

And so yeah, I did some research on like how are genetics passed down?

Like what are the things that we observe?

And a lot of times, they're like, they can do like twins studies, where they will show like twins that were separated at birth and then the things that they are shown to have in common as adults despite having grown up in completely different environments.

And yeah, it's like gait, like mannerisms.

There's a lot of things with like the ears.

And at one point I tried to do something with like ears and ear lobes, but it was way too into the weeds.

So we just, - The gait.

- Sort of the body position and the gait.

- The aquarium setting is central to the story.

What kind of research did you do to accurately depict the aquarium world, and the lives of these amazing marine creatures?

- So the fictional aquarium, the Sowell Bay Aquarium, is actually based on a real aquarium that I used to go to when I was a kid in Tacoma, Washington.

It was the Point Defiance Zoo and Aquarium, which is very much still there, and up and running.

It's a great zoo and aquarium.

But the actual building that housed their aquarium when I was a kid is now closed.

But it was this like round, cement building.

There were like maybe some windows at the very top, but it was very dark.

It always smelled like feet.

(hosts laughing) It was just, it was like really gross inside.

But it was my favorite part of the whole zoo.

I think my parents would take me there and be like, "Really?

You wanna hang out in this aquarium?

Like, we can go see the lions.

Like, we can go see the polar bears."

I'm like, "Nah, I wanna be in here with the jellyfish."

And yeah.

So I did some research on how that aquarium specifically was set up in terms of the way that you would access the areas behind the tanks.

I've been to a couple of aquariums, and seeing that sort of behind the scenes framework and how all of that works.

And it really, it's just, people that work at aquariums tend to, I think, be a certain type of person.

People obviously who care a lot about marine life and the animals.

I don't think most people who go into working at an aquarium or working with animals or conservation in any way, they're not really like out for the money.

Like they're there because they love it.

And I really wanted to depict those relationships and that sort of kindness and and motivation there.

Yeah, I mean, I love aquariums.

I did kind of want readers to come away with a little bit of a mixed feeling about it, which I share as well.

Not so much that "Oh, aquariums are bad, and we shouldn't have these animals in captivity."

But just a sense of like the gravity and the cost.

- [Host] Yeah.

- Of doing that.

And making sure that we are justifying that cost with the conservation and the education and the programming, making sure that it's being as fair to those creatures as we can.

- Well, and you point out that Marcellus was in fact a rescue, which is right, is revealed.

And I think that that's, when I go to a zoo, I always look for that.

It's important.

- Yeah.

- You have done an amazing job crafting this story, and bringing us on adventures in some cases, when I first met a character, I was like, "Why is he here?"

How do you go about outlining your writing?

And how do you handle the various twists and turns as you go?

- So I'm not a big outliner.

I lean toward being a, what we call a "pantser."

Go by the seat of your pants.

- [Fred] Yeah.

- And there's a lot of upsides to that.

I think you stay open to kind of a lot of different scenarios, and you get genuinely surprised by the things that happen sometimes.

That's so fun, as the author, to be riding along, and be surprised by your own plot twist.

The downside to that is that it's much less efficient than just being able to sit down and write the index card outline and then fill in the prose.

But yeah, I always think of it, did you ever watch "The Price is Right?"

- Yes!

- Of course.

- The game Plinko in "The Price is Right."

Where you start at the top, you drop in a little disc.

and then it makes its way, it kind of goes across this board and it lands somewhere that you don't know where it's gonna land.

I sometimes think of my scenes or my chapters that I write as being in a game like that.

I'll write something, thinking, "Okay, it's gonna go, at the 30% mark in the book."

And then I drop it in at the top, and it ends up at the 70% mark, or vice versa.

I think that I have an idea of where they're gonna go and then I end up moving things around so much.

The time when I really go and write an outline is after I have a draft.

Then is when I go and write, okay, chapter by chapter, what is this chapter doing?

What is its job?

Where is the tension?

So much of fiction writing is about preserving the tension, preserving the questions that readers might have.

And so I'll move stuff around to make sure that there are always questions up in the air, so to speak.

Because if you ever get to a point where there's nothing that the reader is wondering about, that's when books I think tend to fall flat.

So I very much write the scenes, and then kind of just reorder them as I need to, and edit them as I need to.

- Well, you say you're not a trained author, but you seem to have it all figured out.

So I think we're taking notes over here.

- I do not, believe me.

- Well, it seems like you do.

That's amazing.

The emotional depth in this story really stands out, especially feelings of grief, feelings of abandonment.

What was the most challenging part of writing "Remarkably Bright Creatures," like emotionally?

- I think, well, so grief is obviously something that we all experience.

And I think a lot of people think of grief as, "Oh, it's what happens when someone or something dies."

And like, yes, that is the source of grief for a lot of the time.

But I think there's also just the grief that we feel sort of every day over like, here's something that didn't go my way, and now I'm grieving that road not taken, or that opportunity that's not gonna exist anymore.

And how we process that grief, or don't, sort of, is a big part of whether we are satisfied and happy people or not.

So I did kind of wanna explore that.

I think a lot of the circumstances of Tova's storyline just come from my own anxieties as a parent.

When I was writing this, I had two small kids.

And I think authors tend to be kind of anxious people.

Like we are always thinking, "What's the worst thing that could happen here?"

And what is the worst thing that could happen?

It would be losing a child, for me.

Like, no question.

And so I think that's how that kind of, I don't know that I ever made a conscious decision to include it.

It was just, this is what happened to her.

And I think it would've been harder to write if it had been fresher.

But given the fact that it was this grief that was sort of decades old, made it a little bit easier, to hopefully authentically portray it, as something that she had just been living with for a long time.

But yeah, it's definitely one of the universal emotions and I love it.

My agent often says that I wrote a funny book about grief.

- Yeah.

It's true.

- Which I think is so funny.

- On the flip side, one of the sweet surprises in this book was the relationship between Tova and Ethan, the Scottish grocery store owner, which I was totally surprised about.

- [Lauren] Yeah.

- And I was like, okay, this is cute.

I'm into it.

I want a seven.

We don't often see those kind of new love stories with older characters, and like that idea of opening yourself up to someone after being married for that long.

- [Lauren] Yeah.

- So what inspired that story and made you wanna include that in the book?

- I really wanted to explore this sort of intersection of a friendship and companionship and romance.

And like really what are those things, and what is the difference between them.

And particularly at different stages of one's life.

Like what does that look like?

And I think some is, I don't know if it is a romance or a friendship or companionship, or all three, but I just knew that I wanted Tova to have someone.

Like a special someone, a special friend.

And Ethan was so much fun to write.

I loved the idea of the town gossip being this dude, 'cause it's always a woman.

And so now it's a man, which is awesome.

And who better to collect all of the gossip than the guy who runs the only grocery store in town?

Like, everyone's gotta go buy their coffee and their creamer.

So he was just so, like I said, I don't outline our plot, but I definitely had this idea of Ethan.

He is going to be central to these secrets sort of coming out, and central to this information coming together.

Because he is physically central in the town, while at the same time being able to fill this role for Tova of ongoing companionship.

You know at the end of the book, that she's gonna have someone there with her going forward.

- Both Tova and Cameron embark on deep personal quest for meaning and belonging.

What inspired you to explore these parallel journeys?

- Well I think they are both experiencing some version of the same thing, just at very different points in their lives.

I sometimes think of Cameron as having the quarter-life crisis, and Tova as having the three-quarter life crisis.

- [Heather] Yeah.

- And it's funny to me 'cause I'm like in the middle.

I'm like, in more like mid-life crisis mode.

But for some reason we always wanna explore these things that are sort of parallel to us, maybe not right so much in our own zone.

Yeah, so, the Cameron character was actually the most difficult character in the book to write to just get exactly right this idea of this guy who's kind of a man-child, and he's not a bad guy, but he needs to grow up.

And he's in that space where all of his friends are kind of, it feels like they're moving on without him.

And I remember very much being like in my late 20s and early 30s and feeling that.

Like everyone is kind of moving on, and am I keeping up?

But his problem is that he can't stop getting in his own way.

Something comes along that might be successful for him, and he gets right up to the edge of doing it, and then kind of chickens out.

And I feel like I related very much to that.

Like, I feel like, in some ways, it took me so many years to finally finish this book, to really get past the first few chapters.

And I sometimes think back on that and think, "Well, I was Cameron-ing it that whole time."

I was getting to like the end of the first act, and then getting scared of what was to come next, and would go back to the beginning and start over.

So he can't get out of his own way.

Tova, on the other hand, just really struggles to let people in.

She is also sort of in her own way.

And they both have to overcome that to let the people around them help them, to let people in to sort of embrace vulnerability, and become better people.

- So are you telling us that you lived in a camper in someone like Ethan's driveway for a long period of time?

- Oh, I've spent many nights camping, but I've never lived in a camper.

Definitely not a rundown one, like Cameron does.

But it was fun.

It was so fun to write.

- One thing I was wondering is how did Marcellus get his name?

Because if I remember correctly, I think it's like Latin for the name of like the god Mars.

But how did you name this character?

- Okay, so I at one point, wanted to name him Marcus Aurelius.

(hosts laughing) I studied philosophy in college.

I thought that was hilarious.

Marcus Aurelius is the famous Stoic philosopher.

One of the most well-known tenets of Stoicism is that you contemplate your death every day.

And so, that's what he's doing.

He's counting down to the end.

And I just thought this was a fantastic joke.

And a couple of my critique partners were like, "I don't really get it.

It's kind of a mouthful."

Makes it sound like it's a philosophy book.

This is like "Sophie's Choice."

Like no, okay, I'm not trying to write a philosophy book.

So I just mashed them up and made it into Marcellus.

Which I also liked the way that the Ls and the us kind of went with octopus, just seemed appropriate for an octopus.

- That's a great backstory.

- I love that!

That's why I wanted ask.

I'm like, "That's a fun name for octopus."

And the other question I had is that after doing all the research and going through all this deep dives, do you have any favorite facts about the giant Pacific octopus that you couldn't include, but are like living rent-free in your mind right now?

- Well, my very favorite one is, I don't know if you've seen this meme, or this graphic.

My gosh, I should see if I have an example of it here.

I must.

All right, you probably have seen some version of this meme.

- [Princess] Oh, that's so fun!

Yes.

- There's a lot of versions of it out there.

It's an octopus.

He's got eight books and eight arms.

- [Lauren] I love it!

- There's also an octopus who's in the kitchen, cooking, and one arm is stirring the pot, and one arm is pouring the wine.

One arm is turning off the stove.

Like it's just the ultimate multitasking, right?

And I remember even seeing versions of it as like a young parent, where it's like, you're trying to get out the door with your toddler and it's just like, you wish you had eight arms, right?

- That was me this morning!

Yay!

- But my favorite thing about that meme is that it's actually quite true.

Octopuses, rather than having a central brain, each of their arms has its own kind of nervous system brain.

And so if they knew how to read, they really could read eight books at once.

Like each arm can do its own thing and function independently.

- [Lauren] Wow.

- And I think that is so cool that, I don't know whoever came up with that meme initially, like knew that, but I just think it's fun that it's so true.

- So, okay, what were some of the reactions that you've heard from readers about your book?

- So it's interesting.

Sometimes if I do a big book event, I will actually poll the audience, and say, "Raise your hand if you were excited to read this book because it featured an octopus narrator."

Like half the people raise their hands.

And say, "Raise your hand if you were like, 'Eh, I don't know, an octopus?'"

And the other 50% raised their hands.

It is consistently about 50/50.

People that were like, "Yes!

This is totally my jam.

I love octopuses.

I'm into it."

And people who are like, "I don't know about that."

And I guess this is obviously a self-selecting group, but there are people that are coming to an event, they probably like the book.

But, having won over that 50% of people who were like, "Eh, I don't know.

But then I started reading, and I forgot he was an octopus.

From the first page, I was just like, I am totally buying this.

I'm into it."

That has been just a really satisfying reaction.

To think that I really wanted to make this octopus seem real.

And with at least that subset of people, I succeeded in doing that, which has been really, really fun.

- That is really fun.

Let's poll our audience right now.

Like, before you read this book, say yes.

If you were into the octopus, say no.

If you were a little, eh, I don't know if I wanna read an octopus book, but you won me over.

- Yeah.

- Right, which half are you in?

- I didn't know that octopus was gonna be a narrator.

So when it happened I was like, "Ooh!"

(hosts laughing) It instantly like got me even more interested.

- Yeah.

I loved it too.

- And I have to say, I texted Lauren while reading it, 'cause we're kind of all reading companions, and I said, "Well, I just don't get how the octopus gets out of the tank."

And she texted me back, "They're remarkably bright!"

(hosts laughing) So that's a good answer.

All right now, Shelby, a couple questions about you.

Did you always know that you were a writer even as a young person?

Or did that realization sort of come later?

- It's been an an interesting journey.

As a kid, I loved to write.

And I wrote a lot of stories.

I wrote a lot of what would probably now be called fan fiction.

I loved to write myself into the "Little House in the Prairie" series, and write my stories about my covered wagon going west, which, I grew up in Tacoma, Washington, where if you go west, you're in the Pacific Ocean.

So I don't know where I was going.

- I love that.

I wanted to be a Boxcar child.

Just pretty similar vibes.

- The total, just wanting to immerse myself in that world.

But as I got to be an older teenager and young adult, I kinda got away from it.

I think the realities of having student loan debt, and having to have a job to deal with that.

Like, I kind of just fell away from the creative side of myself.

And looking back, if I could tell that 20-something person who's working in an office, doing a lot of spreadsheets, and things like that.

Like, "Hey, you don't have to like be a spreadsheet person just because you're doing a spreadsheet job."

I kind of felt like that was who I am now.

But it wasn't until I left that job, and was kind of thinking about, "Well, what comes next for me?"

That I thought, I really did like to write when I was younger.

I wanna try to do that again.

So it's been a journey that I think I took a long hiatus from in the middle, but it feels really, really good to come back to it and embrace that side again.

- We're glad you did.

- Glad you did.

So when you were writing, what is your ideal writing setup?

Are you a morning person?

A night owl?

Do you work in a home office?

Or an office?

Coffee shop?

Or do you like to mix it up?

- I mix it up a fair bit.

When I was drafting most of "Remarkably Bright Creatures," I'd say probably the last like 60, 70% of the draft was during the pandemic.

So that had its own set of weird constraints, obviously.

I did a lot of writing between the hours of like, 10:00 PM and 2:00 AM, because that was the only time the house was quiet.

Had a three and a five-year-old at home with me.

So I kinda carved out the part of the day that was available and that was very late at night.

Things are different now.

I still do find myself drawn to writing in the night hours more than in the morning hours.

But I think more than anything, I take the hours when I can get them.

My kids are now eight and 10, and somehow life is just busier than ever.

It's like all the activities and things.

So I write on my phone sometimes, which I swore I would never do.

But I find myself doing a lot now in the notes.

I'll write out some dialogue or something, and then I go later that night, I'll drop it into my document on my computer and pick it back up.

So yeah, it's a lot of right now me just figuring out how to fit it into sort of the nooks and crannies of life, really.

I love writing in coffee shops.

I love being kind of out.

I love writing at my library.

My local library is my favorite place to write.

And they have a coffee shop inside, so it's a win-win.

- Double win.

- No, yeah.

Night owls unite.

Like sometimes there are too many morning people we've interviewed on this show.

It's okay.

When it comes to reading, are you a physical book reader, e-reader audio book, or some mixture of all three?

- Oh, I have all three going, at all times.

Audio books I never really listened to until the last couple years.

Really until going through the process of watching my own audiobook get made off my book.

And then seeing the reader response to it and thinking, "Well maybe I should give audiobooks a shot.

People seem to really like this."

And they're fantastic!

- [Princess] Yeah.

- I love having an audiobook going, so I can do it while I'm doing chores, or driving, or whatever.

It's a fantastic way to sort of reclaim some time in our busy world.

Kindle or e-reader, another one that I kind of resisted for a long time, but now it's very easy.

A lot of the reading I'm doing is books that haven't come out yet, because other authors want me to read their work and write a blurb for it, which is so much fun.

And usually those are only available electronically, or mostly available electronically.

So I usually have that going on my Kindle.

And then I always have one physical book going, because I do love physical books.

I don't think I will ever completely abandon them, no matter how great the audio books are, and how easy the eBooks are.

Physical books are probably still my favorite of the three.

- Well, especially when they're so beautiful.

Like your book is just so pretty.

It's a pretty one.

It matches our set, too.

- Sure does.

- [Shelby] Yeah, it does.

- Amazing.

- All right, Shelby, you mentioned "Little House," Laura Ingalls Wilder.

Give us another favorite book from your childhood.

- Okay, so this is gonna seem super obvious, but it really is the probably most honest answer to, if I could draw a direct line between a book I read as a child, and the writing of "Remarkably Bright Creatures," it would have to be "Charlotte's Web."

Just the, - [Host] The ultimate.

- The human-animal relationship.

The line, and I really should look it up, so I can get it exactly right.

But there's a line in "Charlotte's Web," toward the beginning, where Fern, the girl who is making friends with Wilbur, the pig, is raising him, is going to her uncle's barn to visit these animals, and is spending all of her time there.

And her parents are kind of like, "Well, maybe, is this really healthy for a young girl to be just hanging out like at this pigsty?"

And Fern says something like, "Well, I'm not just hanging out there, I'm talking to them."

And I think it's her dad who is like, "Animals can't talk.

That's ridiculous."

And the mom says, "Well, do we know that they can't talk?

Maybe we just aren't listening closely enough."

And I think that line in particular really, I had it in my mind when I was writing the relationships between Marcellus and the humans.

This idea that even if we can't physically speak to one another, if we listen closely enough, there can be communication, and really meaningful relationships there.

- Absolutely.

What are some of your favorite books that you've read in the last year?

- In the last year?

Okay.

And I have a little stack right here.

- [Princess] Okay.

- Yeah.

Okay.

For folks who liked "Remarkably Bright Creatures," and don't mind a weird book, I always recommend "Shark Heart," by Emily Habeck.

- [Princess] Oh, I've seen that one.

- It is fantastically weird.

It is a young couple who's just married and the husband is, they find out he's slowly turning into a great white shark, like literally.

Physically morphing.

This is a thing that happens in this world.

It is the only weird thing that happens in this world.

And I think that's the really fun thing that makes it similar to "Remarkably Bright Creatures."

It's this very realistic, highly emotional story, with just one thing that is like completely bizarre.

It's a great book club book.

It's kind of a book that you could really give to anyone that really speaks to universal themes of loss and like how do we say goodbye?

So, bring your tissues, but like, in a good way.

Let's see, what else?

For people that might want to know more about octopuses, I always recommend Sy Montgomery's books.

She, of course, wrote "The Soul of an Octopus."

- [Princess] Oh, yes.

- Which really influenced me in the writing of "Remarkably Bright Creatures."

But she has a newer book out called "Secrets of the Octopus," and this is an advanced copy.

So I think the final one is prettier.

But yeah, she just kind of picks up where she left off with "Soul of an Octopus."

And it's just like even more stories about octopuses and the relationships with humans.

It is non-fiction, but it is a page-turner.

Really, I think you can't go wrong with any of Sy Montgomery's books.

I also have loved "What the Chicken Knows," which just came out recently.

And she did "Of Time and Turtles."

Like she just has this knack for taking a specific animal or species and saying like, "Hey, how do we relate to them?

Where does this creature fit into our narrative and the narrative of our species?"

She's so gifted.

And I'll say one more, this, I don't know if I read it in the last year, might've been last year.

But it is "Open Throat" by Henry Hoke.

This book is a little bit darker than "Remarkably Bright Creatures," but it is told from the perspective of a mountain lion in the hills above Los Angeles in Southern California.

And it is, I would say it's like a novel in prose.

So the format is very unique.

It's a very fast read.

It's a very thrilling read.

I think I read it twice in one day.

- [Host] What?

- Like I devoured it, which is appropriate, because it's about, (hosts laughing) But it does contain some sort of like, like I would say, I don't know that I would give it to my kids.

It has some violence and some more mature themes, but it's fantastic.

- Those are great picks, thank you.

Great picks.

- Thanks for that advice.

What advice have you received as a person?

The best advice you've received?

- I think, with writing advice, it's so hard.

There's so much writing advice out there, and when I was first kind of going down this journey of really figuring out how to write a novel, because as I said, I didn't go to school for this.

I really didn't know what I was doing.

I felt like I needed to go onto Twitter, and really look for all of these people's takes on writing and try to do everything that everyone said I should do.

And I think what I found was that that didn't really work.

I think, as cliche as it sounds, I think the best writing advice that I have found is to find what works for you, and disregard the rest.

And, I think you have to know what kind of a person and what kind of a writer you are.

Like, for instance, a lot of people, they're morning writers, they'll say, "You gotta get up every day at 5:30, and write for an hour, and that's how you finish your novel."

And I can tell you, I would never finish a novel if I tried to do it that way.

- Absolutely.

Not me, either.

- No, never.

- But what does work for me is this other path.

And I think you have to sort of know the rules of writing, and then know how to break them effectively.

One of my, I remember early on, Googling how to write a novel, which is not super helpful.

And you get like, okay, every novel has to have an antagonist and a protagonist.

Has to have a hero and a villain.

And so I was trying to write a hero and a villain.

And it wasn't working.

And so I said, "Okay, I'm not gonna have a villain."

But the good part is that the character of Cameron came out of that exercise, came out of me trying to make a villain, but being unable to do it.

But then thinking to myself, "Okay, I'm glad I understood that.

I'm glad I tried that.

Now I'm gonna do what I think I need to do."

And so I think it really just comes down to sort of confidence and doing what works for you and being secure in that.

- Confidence in doing what works for you.

Is that the advice you would give to aspiring writers?

Or do you have other words of wisdom for people who wanna take on the art form?

- I think, I mean, the number one thing that I would say is, which is advice that I'm giving myself right now also, as I'm trying to finish my second book.

There's no substitute for putting your butt in your chair.

There truly is not.

So, just keep at it, and keep putting the words in, and I think I have a tendency to sit at my computer and think that whatever I put down on the page has to be brilliant.

And like, no, it does not.

It's okay if it's not brilliant.

Just put it down anyway and fix it later.

- That's like what Geraldine Brooks said to us.

- Yeah.

- She's like, "Create mess, mess, mess, and then a little bit of art."

I loved it.

- Exactly.

- Yep.

- So what do you hope that readers will take away from "Remarkably Bright Creatures?"

Is there a message that you hope sticks with them after reading the book?

- I think the overall thing that I would like, if I could pick one thing for people to sort of take from it, would be, it's really never too late to make a change, or to become better.

I would like for them to carry Marcellus with them, and his hope that we can be better people.

And a lot of the characters in this book are sort of later in life.

And if they can do it, if they can grow and change and become better people, we can do it.

This hopelessness that we all, I think feel sometimes in our modern world, it's understandable, but it's not a helpful thing.

So, put Marcellus on your shoulder, and let him help you make you a better person.

- That sounds sticky, but I'll do it.

(hosts laughing) - Finally, - He can only stay there for like 14 minutes, but you know, - I'll have those little sucker marks, like ta!

- Yeah.

- Finally, anything else would you like to say to your readers?

- Just the biggest thank you on the planet.

I mean, there truly are not words for how much gratitude I have for the readers of "Remarkably Bright Creatures."

So much of this book's success has been from word of mouth, from people just gifting it to someone.

"Hey, I think you might like this."

Helping to win over the skeptics, the 50% who aren't sure about an octopus.

I've heard so many stories of folks that have pressed it into a friend's hands, and said, "Hey, just trust me.

This sounds weird, but you're gonna love it."

And it's I think those interactions that truly have made this book as successful as it is.

So, so many thank yous for that.

- Well, and so much gratitude from us to you.

Thank you so much, Shelby.

Wonderful conversation.

An absolute pleasure hearing more about "Remarkably Bright Creatures."

- We always love learning more about the stories behind the stories, don't we?

And Book Clubbers, a quick reminder.

We'll be revealing our next pick for February, and it's a good one.

That's coming up at the end of this episode, so stick around.

Anything surprise you from the interview with Shelby?

- I mean, I know more about octopi than I've ever thought I was ever gonna need, so I'm just excited about that.

I love a fun fact.

- Yeah.

I also love that she was a mother when she first started writing it, and kind of that balance, right, of people who also take so much time and how timing of releases books often mean everything.

- She's very, yeah, she's bright and warm and lovely, and I just, I love talking to her.

- [Heather] All of those things.

- She's so fantastic.

And I have even a greater appreciation for my guy, Ethan.

Such a strong and supportive character.

- Yes.

- What about the Knit-Wits?

- Oh, the Knit-Wits, yeah.

The Knit-Wits.

- [Fred] And remember that you can watch this month's Watch Alike, "All Creatures Great and Small," on PBS Passport when you support PBS and get access to stream exclusive content.

- [Lauren] Remember that when you become a member of your local PBS station by donating at pbsbooks.org/donate, you can access so many incredible shows in Passport, including "All Creatures Great and Small," and the extended versions of our PBS Books interviews.

- And of course, you can get your PBS Books mug with the adorable "My weekend is booked" slogan.

- Visit pbsbooks.org/donate to make your donation today.

Your support is what keeps this book club going.

Okay, book lovers, we're excited to reveal our next "PBS Books Readers Club" pick for February.

- Our February pick is "Good Dirt," the latest novel by Charmaine Wilkerson, New York Times bestselling author of "Black Cake."

- I am so excited to talk to her.

In "Good Dirt," Ebby Freeman, the daughter of an affluent Black family, unravels a connection between a childhood tragedy and a treasured family heirloom, a jar brought north by her enslaved ancestor.

This powerful novel explores themes of loss, identity, and how the past shapes our future.

- I know you all got a headstart on "Good Dirt."

Do you think our Book Clubbers will like this one?

- Like, the drama that's in this book is intense.

Like if you've watched any of those dating reality shows?

On top of all the intense family drama, there's just some really spicy relationship angst.

I was on my toes the entire time.

- I was too, but I also couldn't help but think about how "Remarkably Bright Creatures" and "Good Dirt" also stem from trauma, and how it focuses on women and how they deal with trauma.

Kind of that comparison of different places in life.

The authors take them in completely different directions, but they both pull me in and I mean, I love them both.

- Yeah.

Well I love how "Good Dirt" is sort of part historical fiction.

- Yes.

- 'Cause we're following the story of Ebby's enslaved ancestors, and their incredible journey, and their resilience.

And then we're also sort of like modern family drama, because like you said, Ebby's dealing with some crazy relationship stuff, her parents, all of this stuff.

So it's a great mix.

If you like historical fiction, you'll love it.

And if you like modern family drama, you'll love that too.

It's a really, really good read.

It keeps you going.

I read it so fast.

- Yeah, if you love mess, - Very fast.

(hosts laughing) - Well, I like stuff that moves quickly.

And here, I think I'm settling down for a novel in New England.

Next thing you know, I'm in France, and I'm moving, and there's characters and there's history and there's trauma, but there's also the paparazzi and the pop culture and all of that, breathing it in.

It's awesome.

- It is a really great book, and we want you to join us for a live discussion with Charmaine Wilkerson on February 26th to discuss her new book, "Good Dirt," as well as her massive bestseller, "Black Cake."

I know many of you have already read that one.

And you're gonna love this new book too.

So RSVP to our PBS Books Facebook event right now, so you don't miss it.

And subscribe to the PBS Books YouTube channel as well.

You'll find an archive of so many author talks and amazing bookish content.

- Yeah, and if you haven't signed up for the PBS Books e-newsletter yet, go ahead, do that now, at pbsbooks.org/subscribe.

You'll get book recommendations, author interviews, much, much more delivered right to your inbox.

- Thank you for being a part of the "PBS Books Readers Club."

We'll see you next month.

(gentle music)